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Andrew Gwilt   17/02/2017 at 15:03

I do think that HS2 will bring better rail connections and better rail journeys for the North of England as HS2 is due to start construction from possibly 2018 and to be completed by 2026 with major English cities including Manchester and Birmingham that will benefit a brand new high speed railway that will not only link those cities as well the North of England but also will link with London and continental Europe via HS1 and the Channel Tunnel.

Graham Nalty   17/02/2017 at 15:24

At last some common sense is being talked about HS2. certainly the best way for South Yorkshire districts to access HS2 is via Sheffield and the least expensive way of doing this is by having the HS2 station at Sheffield Midland. And that it is important that the HS2 stations in cities such as Leeds and Manchester are through stations for services to travel seamlessly on to further destinations. With this sensible thinking, it would be much better to start building HS2 in the North with the first leg from Leeds to Sheffield Midland. From there trains could go on directly to London, Birmingham and Nottingham. But also surely it is time to drop the idea of a South Yorkshire parkway that will only benefit London and Leeds and will not attract business into South Yorkshire.

John Burns   17/02/2017 at 15:29

This article hit the nail on the head. Without good connections to the surrounding city regions HS2 will not be used as well as they think. Leeds and Manchester HS2 stations are not well connected to their immediate city regions. Manchester has street running trams with Leeds mainly having buses. Hardly optimum and 21st century. Liverpool, having its own metro, Merseyrail, is very well connected to its city region, far better than Manchester and Leeds. With the reuse of the Halton Curve now near enough a green light project, fast trains will be brought in from North Wales and Chester and stopping along to the way to Lime St making it even better. Also what would make matters better again at Liverpool is an underground travelator from Liverpool Central Underground to Lime St station, connecting the two near adjacent stations. If the one third of the metro that was dropped in the 1970s was eventually completed (the tunnels and trackbed still await trains) their connections would be vastly superior again. As it stands only London beat Liverpool for city centre station connections, but Liverpool could match London if their metro is finished and even expanded. But in their wisdom, Liverpool, a city region of 2.2 million, was omitted from having a direct HS2 link. You couldn't make this up.

Jimbo   17/02/2017 at 21:03

@Andrew Gwilt - phase 1 of HS2 to Birmingham is scheduled for completion by 2026, phase 2a to Crewe by 2027 and phase 2b to Manchester/Leeds is 2033. The link between HS2 and HS1 was removed from the plans in 2012 due to costs and because of concerns from Camden Borough. @John Burns - Liverpool is not omitted from HS2, and is scheduled to have 2 tph from HS2. It is just that the last few miles will be via classic lines. This is normal practice for most high speed lines - city centre terminus's are very unusual.

John Gibbons Webster   18/02/2017 at 08:55

The recent WYCA Report makes interesting reading as I have always maintained that the terminal stations planned for HS2 at Manchester and Leeds would be difficult to serve HS3 in the future and should have been planned as through stations so as to serve Liverpool and the West Coast to the west and York etc and the East Coast to the east. If the HS2 stations go ahead as planned I see no future for HS3 for decades to come due to cost of providing additional stations at Manchester & Leeds.

John Burns   18/02/2017 at 13:46

@Jimbo Not one nut and bolt of HS2 will go within 20 miles of Liverpool. There is NO direct HS2 connection, Most of the time on the London-Liverpool trip will be on classic track from Crewe 40 miles away. While Manchester next door is having a very expensive 7.5 mile gold plated tunnel, complete with expensive "S" shaped HS2 track circumventing Tatton (Osborn's seat), which slows up the trains to classic line speeds into Piccadilly station, which faces the wrong way. Liverpool to Birmingham is all on very slow classic track while Manchester to Birmingham is all on HS2. Liverpool, a city region of 2.2 million, is being treated as if it is a small town.

John Burns   18/02/2017 at 14:22

@John Gibbons Webster It must be cheaper to close down Piccadilly terminal station (keep the through platforms outside the main train shed) and enlarge Victoria to a much more useful 'through' super-station giving one point for all connections in Manchester. Perfect. Terminal stations are not necessary in inland cities. The two stations are now connected via the Ordsall Chord, so trains from the south can easily reach Victoria. Once a 'terminal' station is converted to a 'through' station it can deal with the same level of passenger traffic with one third of the platforms. The trains switch back outside the city or town. Trains stop long enough for passengers to depart and alight, not sit there hogging platform space. Modern signalling also means the throughput of a 'through' station is much higher again. Berlin eliminated terminals to great success, with many crossrail lines created giving far greater connectivity and choice for passengers. Remember them? Passengers. Nearby Liverpool did this by demolishing Central and Exchange terminal stations, dropping the platforms underground and linking the two via tunnel, creating a north-south crosssrail. All trains entering Manchester from the north, west, north east, Birmingham and London can go via 'through' station Victoria taking most of the traffic. The lines into Manchester from the south would carry little in comparison. The Ordsall Chord will get the trains from the south into Victoria. It may require some tunnelling under or around Victoria to get the proposed by TfN new HS3 Liverpool to Manchester line in. This HS3 line can act as the access to HS2 for both cities - common sense. But it will be a well used 24/7 through tunnel not a poorly used 7.5 mile long dead-end branch tunnel running into outdated Piccadilly as HS2 propose. Also Liverpool and Leeds trains, and maybe from North Wales in the future, must run right through Manchester at full line speed. Terminal stations are a wasteful Victorian legacy. This is the ideal opportunity to get the mess, that is the rail network around Manchester up to date and greatly serving the people of Manchester and the whole of the North of England as well.

John Jefkins   18/02/2017 at 18:49

Good article and great comments. The worst example of a terminal station on HS2 is Euston. We should instead be creating through platforms to/from HS1 in the space between Euston & St Pancras (and over the planned Crossrail 2 station). Over half the HS2 trains would then run on to East London, Kent, Essex or Europe, with just some terminating at the existing long St Pancras platforms currently used by Eurostar. The Eurostar trains themselves are better used running up to Birmingham & Manchester (with 3/4 their seats filled with DOMESTIC passengers) instead of sitting idle for 90 to 120 minutes as they do now at St Pancras platforms. In that idle time they could easily do a Birmingham round trip. And platforms either side of the train can be used to exit domestic passengers, check the train is empty and then load international from the other side (or vica versa). That does mean bag checks (as all high speed trains have in spain), but it also means £4 billion saved on a smaller Euston rebuild, less new trains, depots and staff.

Michael Wand   18/02/2017 at 23:37

For Andrew Gwilt: The HS2 package makes no attempt to improve today's interchange penalties at Euston. It makes no attempt to fast-connect the east-west chain of cities of the Northern Powerhouse.
 It will not have a cross-platform interchange with HS1, nor a central London interchange with Crossrail and it makes no attempt to gather rail passengers from south of the Thames. Time for a review of the whole.

Chris M   19/02/2017 at 04:21

I suspect many posters on here have not followed the subject in detail. Time for some realism about HS2 folks - there will be no HS1 links, no subsurface London platforms, no Eurostars to Birmingham, no use of St Pancras, no more project reviews. All of these fantasy ideas (and many more) were considered in great detail and rejected several years ago. The phase 1 hybrid bill has already been approved by both the Commons and the Lords with whopping majorities. Royal Assent is imminent and the main construction contracts will be awarded within weeks. The infrastructure will be built to the precise designs presented to Parliament by the promoter, HS2 Ltd. Phase 2 is not yet defined by a hybrid bill, but the basic east and west branches outlined last July are what will be covered by this legislation. There is scope for more connections to be added to other railway lines and for minor route deviations to be added, but the basic 'Y' route will not change significantly. Any other new lines under Manchester or to Liverpool for example will have to be sponsored by Transport For the North and paid for from different budgets - it will not be included within the HS2 legislation

John Burns   19/02/2017 at 09:51

@Chris M HS2 phase 2 is a long way off any Royal assent. In fact the design is not even finalised yet. The northern tips of the HS2 "Y" are to merge with west to east HS3, whatever form that ends up as. "High-speed" HS3? I doubt it. Maybe a new line from Manchester to Liverpool as TfN want, which the Port of Liverpool needs to alleviate lines for freight, and the rest a tart up of existing lines. TfN and HS2 are to "cooperate" on connecting of the HS2 and HS3. High-speed for the North of England? Let's all dream on! If a new west to east line was to be built across the south of England it would definitely be high-speed. Anyone objectively looking at this shambles would just drop any planning on HS2 phase 2 until HS3 is nailed down. This will end up a cludge as usual, as HS2 phase 2 and HS3 should be designed as one under one body, all pointing the same way. Connecting HS3 into the "existing design" poor design of HS2 is just pure amateurism. HS2 phase 1 should never have seen the light of day. Having high-speed trains in Birmingham not at New St, the main station, where the prime connections are (the prime point of this article) is downright madness. The proposed HS2 station is about half a mile from New St. Who thought of this nonsense? Any names? Also the phase 1 design is not nailed down at the London end either. The MPs who voted for this amateurish cludge should be ashamed of themselves as they voted without knowing the whole design. But hey! This is a train spotters dream. As long as pointed fast trains go from somewhere to somewhere very fast with few people on them, who cares.

John Burns   19/02/2017 at 10:29

@Michael Wand Excellent post. And you only hit "some" of the negative points of this shambolic railway design. Manchester airport's proposed HS2 station needs a bus to get to the air terminal, similar with East Midlands. We could all go on and on about this nonsensical design. Those for this shambles keep saying with glazed eyes, "capacity, capacity", like a stuck record. The city with the best connections to its mainline station by far is Liverpool, which can also be improved even better without too much effort. Of course this large city region was left off direct HS2 track. HS2 needs a foreign, impartial, full assessment before we any further. I am sure they would come up with a far superior broad brush design.

Lutz   19/02/2017 at 11:51

So, what they are saying is that the budget allocated for the Yorkshire spur of phase 2 is inadequate, and that the HS2 project is under budgeted by GBP 12B. That would kill off the project in the real world. It is ridiculous to be making these demands for additional funding saying that they are vital. If the HS2 project can not stand on it's own as is, it needs shutting down before it goes any further otherwise we will end up with an open ended commitment for funding it will not be possible to satisfy. These people should also be aware that there is a real problem with funding both HS2 and CR2 in the proposed forms, and that is before costings for the failed electrification projects are reviewed for CP6.

Lutz   19/02/2017 at 12:09

@John Burns: Unfortunately there was no economic benefit in taking HS2 into Liverpool, and any such extension would not save Liverpool. Manchester is the regional capital, and to achieve the benefits for the north, economic investment must be concentrated there to induce the desired agglomeration effects. Liverpool will continue to develop as a satellite of Manchester. @John Jefkins: There was never any value to be had from running Euro services north of London, and the service may become economically unviable as we leave the EU anyway.

John Burns   19/02/2017 at 14:58

+Lutz "Unfortunately there was no economic benefit in taking HS2 into Liverpool" That is total nonsense. The Liverpool city region is 2.2 million strong. It can equally be said that there is no economic benefit to taking HS2 into Manchester or Leeds then. Liverpool needs extra lines into the city fro its new Superport. KPMG, hired by HS2 Ltd, even stated that Liverpool will be economically harmed by HS2. Manchester is getting amazing favourable treatment for a city of its size and economy. A big pusher of HS2 in its current warped form was George Osborne, whose seat is not surprisingly on the edge of Manchester. The likes of experts like Christian Wolmar, state there is no need for HS2 at all, they have convinced me. Upgrading the existing mainlines by removing bottlenecks and introducing state-of-the-art trains can give similar journey times from London to these cities. Times to and from London is the metric. The MML is not even fully electrified, with the southern part acting as a commuter line for Thameslink. The capacity is currently spread over THREE mainlines - with HS2, when fully finished, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, etc, trains all converge onto one 2 track line south of Birmingham. It is not going to cope. If these three are up to scratch with state-of-the-art trains on them HS2 is just not needed. Any new lines should be local and regional to remove slow trains from the mainlines. Then they greatly serve millions of people on a day to day basis. The UK is short of proper commuter/metro lines. HS3 is a different thing to HS2, which should be designed and built ASAP. All economist state it will create economic growth, unlike HS2. @Lutz "There was never any value to be had from running Euro services north of London, and the service may become economically unviable as we leave the EU anyway." Will you back all that up for us with some references? I doubt you can.

John Burns   20/02/2017 at 06:59

@Lutz "Manchester is the regional capital" Such fantasy. Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, etc, think differently. Again will you please give us a reference to confirm this.

John Jefkins   20/02/2017 at 13:48

All that is being approved is Phase 1 outline planning permission. There is plenty of scope for Phase 2 to link to HS1 via through platforms built along with Crossrail 2. Plenty of scope also for more integration with existing lines & trains. As for Eurostar services up HS2, as they would be mainly carrying DOMESTIC passengers they would be more viable than any competing UK operator who would have to buy new trains, depots and pay a separate team of staff. These trains currently sit idle at St Pancras for long enough to do a round-trip up HS2 to Birmingham and back.

John Burns   20/02/2017 at 15:19

HS2, when fully finished, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds Sheffield, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, etc, trains all converge onto one 2 track line south of Birmingham. It is not going to cope. Fast trains need more headroom. I can see Leeds and Newcastle moving onto the ECML with bottlenecks removed giving a similar times to London as HS2. Which of course brings into question building HS2 in the first place. One of the prime reasons for building HS2 was, so they told us, to have high-speed rail to the Continent for all the major cities of the UK (and later Ireland). The only way to have this is to build another line from around Birmingham to HS1 way east of London. The ECML could branch into it serving trains from Leeds & Newcastle and Scotland. Of course this is more money, but it will be called HS? something.

Geordie   21/02/2017 at 15:58

This whole debate about Liverpool can easily be shut down by the provision of a link at Golborne or somewhere where one of the Liverpool Manchester lines intersect HS2 near Warrington, which would allow CC trains to join the HS2 line just 20 miles out of Liverpool, thus reducing the journey time to London drastically. The cost of this would be miniscule compared to the billions being lavished on Manchester.

John Burns   22/02/2017 at 15:53

@Geordie A branch from the northbound HS2 track can be around Goldborne. But would need to branch into the 1830 Liverpool-Manchester line. The Manchester link to HS2 could equally branch into HS2 via the Liverpool-Mcr line and terminate at Victoria station. The HS2 train would need to slow up over Chat Moss, however the train would be slowing up to stop at Victoria anyhow. This would avoid all that super expensive HS2 track into Piccadilly via a 7.5 mile gold plated tunnel. But the 1830 line would not be able to cope. It may do if the southern Liverpool-Manchester line via Warrington was electrified with uprated signals which could cope with all the Liverpool-Manchester traffic. Currently it is a slow diesel service. There is also a northern Liverpool-Manchester line that few know about. It went from Liverpool to Manchester via Kirkby. It is longer than the other two lines. The Liverpool-Kirkby section was electrified and made a part of Merseyrail. The Kirkby to Manchester section is diesel hauled. The line could be 100% electrified with Merseyrail trains entering Manchester. This would give trains from Manchester, and between, entering the Liverpool underground section and stations. Having the southern and northern Liverpool-Manchester lines being fast electric trains will take the strain from the middle 1930 line leaving it primarily for HS2 train for Liverpool & Manchester. Sounds sensible doesn't it? But, Northern Powerhouse and TfN want a new Liverpool-Manchester line for HS3. This would give Liverpool a high-speed link to the HS2 backbone. Another but! HS2 is already planned. So any Liverpool branch into HS2 will be into the clunky HS2 route around Tatton and into Piccadilly and Mcr Airport. The whole of the northern tips of the HS2 "Y" needs re-designing to seamlessly merge into HS3. Another but! Politics get in the way. HS2 will not spend any of its budget on any other enhancements to HS2. That mean a Liverpool link will be a lengthy track into the already poorly planned HS2 route through Cheshire. If in three years time a Labour government gets in, they may change matters and give Liverpool its high-speed link. But the Tories have proven over 35-40 years they dislike Liverpool. They will not even finish the metro with one third still not completed. It is all in the political sphere.

Geordie   22/02/2017 at 16:37

@John Burns; thanks for the insight, maybe the "third Lpool-Mcr route via Kirkby could be electrified then to accommodate both Merseyrail AND AC trains. This could serve as a link to the HS2 line near WIgan, and who knows, the reopening of Exchange Station for non Merseyrail services! Not ideal I know, but much much better than the current plans for Hs2 regarding Liverpool.

Jerry Alderson   22/02/2017 at 16:52

Re: "Berlin eliminated terminals to great success" Indeed, and Vienna's new Hauptbahnhof (a great through station) has eliminated its Suedbahnhof terminus station (Westbahnhof remains, with less traffic, along with the minor Franz Josefs bahnhof).

Banklineman   22/02/2017 at 18:02

We are told by this government that there are more people in work everything is fine,but yet we have the NHS and social services all most in a state of collapse and now we are informed by the EU they require a divorce settlement of £51Bn and a large part of our banking industry may move to Europe. I would suggest the gold plated HS2 proposed "Y" scheme / route will require a little TWEAKING !! and why not !

John Burns   22/02/2017 at 23:43

@Geordie Get the facts first. As it stands, there is "NO" plan to run a dedicated HS2 line into Liverpool. None! Everything else is opinion or wishful thinking. Yet it is the best connected city that rivals London in this respect. The Tories have deliberately sidelined a major UK city out of political spite. The Liverpool Exchange station site is partially built on and plans are in to built on the rest. We can safely say that Exchange is out for HS2. But as you stated The line from Liverpool to Wigan via Kirkby could have been used as a link into Liverpool. A slow one but a link indeed and far better than from Crewe 40 miles away. Much of the line from Kirkby to Liverpool can be four tracks. Having Liverpool served from Crewe was really taking the piss out of the city. Another point is that the Port of Liverpool is looking at the Kirkby line to be used for freight out of the new Superport to the WCML. @Jerry Alderson Why the DfT is leaving inland city Manchester with two terminal stations borders on total disbelief. Total amateurism. They need just "one" through stations, which would benefit Manchester itself greatly. @Banklineman Realistically, HS2 only needs to run to Crewe, London-Birmingham-Crewe and then classic lines north from there onwards. Yorkshire can be served from uprated MML and ECML, with little time penalty compared to HS2. Yes, you are right, "essential" services like the NHS are far import than a vanity rail network, which few economists predict will create overall growth.

Rhydgaled   24/02/2017 at 12:24

Some good points about the shambolic use of terminal stations across the planned HS2 network in the comments so far. To the person who suggested Euston was the biggest problem though, I am starting to think London is getting too congested to make it a high-speed rail hub (which would need a HS3 through Heathrow to Bristol and a HS4 to York as well as HS2) and the security difficulties of chunnel traffic don't help the case either. Thus I would suggest the most worst of the terminal stations on HS2 is BIRMINGHAM. That should be the hub of the high-speed rail network, with spokes to Manchester and London and, by means of classic-compatible trains, Bristol, Liverpool, Chester etc. “Once a 'terminal' station is converted to a 'through' station it can deal with the same level of passenger traffic with one third of the platforms.” By that same logic, a through station can take three times the level of traffic of a terminus with the same number of platforms. Thus, with Curzon Street currently expected to take at least 7 trains every hour there should be no problem accepting the full 18tph throughput of the plain line between stations at a through station with the same footprint. Thus, it would be possible to implement the following with capacity to spare: London – Birmingham – Manchester – Leeds (4tph) captive London – Birmingham – Crewe – Liverpool (3tph) classic London – Birmingham – Crewe – Glasgow (1tph) classic London – Birmingham – Preston – Glasgow (1tph) classic London – Birmingham – Crewe – Chester/Holyhead (1tph) classic London – Birmingham – Wolverhampton/Shrewsbury (1tph) classic London to Leeds services could either run as planned, with the Bristol – Birmingham – Leeds – Newcastle (2tph) classic and Plymouth – Bristol – Birmingham – Leeds – Newcastle – Edinburgh (1tph) classic replacing the Leeds-Birmingham services; or all these services could run via Manchester and Northern Powerhouse Rail to Leeds (meaning the Birmingham to Leeds via Sheffield route wouldn't be needed). Either way, the Manchester HS2 station needs to be underground so that it can also be the Northern Powerhouse Rail station, running through to Leeds (which should also be a through station, running through to Newcastle).

John Burns   24/02/2017 at 22:51

The Victorian rail legacy around Manchester is a mess and stands in the way of a smooth and fast west to east HS3 line. This can also allow fast high-speed access to the HS2 north-south backbone from Liverpool and Manchester. HS3 will be a linear hub. The rail around Manchester needs updating to allow fast full HS3 linespeed 'under' the city, as the city is between the North West/North Wales and West Yorks and beyond. That is obvious. A west-east HS3 tunnel through the city is needed that runs under Victoria. Not a HS2 only branch tunnel to inappropriate Piccadilly, a station facing the wrong way. The HS3 tunnel can surface in the Manchester eastern suburbs. It needs all Gtr Manchester's rail centralized at one large 'through' flagship station - Victoria, with Piccadilly terminal closed down. Terminal stations are an expensive negative legacy of the Victorian era. It has to be put right. Centralizing on one through station gives a number of local crossrail lines through Gtr Manchester. Victoria station needs to service HS2 (if it comes further north than CRewe) and HS3, so all at one point for ease of connections. Then another 'base' tunnel under the Pennines emerging at Barnsley and branching into the north-south lines to Leeds and Sheffield. TfN has proposed a new line to Liverpool from Manchester for HS3 which makes sense as the Port of Liverpool throughput is about to rapidly rise. It is not difficult to think through. This is the ideal opportunity to get it right and benefit the whole of the North of England. If it is not seized now it will be lost for very long time.

Maurice   25/02/2017 at 06:43

@Lutz. No economic value in services from Europe to Manchester? Well that will reduce the number of direct air flights! What unfounded rubbish. Anyway there is the old case of increasing demand once a service is available... the same as traffic generation after the opening of news roads.

John Burns   25/02/2017 at 10:58

@Maurice Manchester airport services: ♦ North West of England, ♦ Northern Midlands, ♦ North Wales ♦ West Yorks. Direct trains to the continent from Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds ►would◄ be a success.